Chief Edwin Kiagbodo Clark, Elder statesman and Ijaw leader, recently clocked 86. At his Asokoro residence, Abuja, one of the eminent guests who called to felicitate with the old man was former Abia State governor, Dr. Orji Uzor Kalu. But rather than just sitting down and exchanging banter with him, Kalu turned himself into an aggressive newshound leading the interview team, which drilled Clark on a wide range of issues including his life (at 86), the Jonathan presidency, the place of Igbo in the Nigerian nation, among other issues.
Kalu, who is The Sun publisher, is a reporter at heart and had, in the past, interviewed high profile personalities, like former Secretary-General of the United Nations, Boutrous Ghali; former Presidents Nelson Mandela and Thabo Mbeki of South Africa; United States President Bill Clinton, among others.
The interview with Clark, he says, is the beginning of his new assignment of interviewing Nigerians who are 80 years and above.
Below, are excerpts of the Clark interview conducted by ORJI UZOR KALU, ERIC OSAGIE (Executive Director), PAULINUS AIDOGHIE (staff reporter) and MUDASHIRU ATANDA (Photo journalist)
At 86, what would you say is the greatest achievement the country has made and where do you think the country is going now?
Well, I am 86. Watching Nigeria from the First Republic in those days when I was a member of the Zikist Vanguard, I was a young man admiring Dr. Nnamdi Azikiwe when he came to Warri. We used to trek on the road. I would say that Nigeria has moved forward. Nigeria has moved forward despite all the problems we have faced. We have fought a civil war and that did not divide Nigeria. And I think that alone had brought all of us together. I think we should have a Nigeria whereby everybody is one. I have always told people that the Igbo fought a civil war not without a cause. Because they didn’t want to be second class citizens in their own country.
After the civil war in 1970, Gowon, in his wisdom, said no victor, no vanquished, and he expected everybody to come back to Nigeria. And I remember many years now, in one of the executive councils of General Gowon, when the council was to appoint a General Manager of NNOC (Nigeria National Oil Company), several candidates were presented. At that time, Alhaji Shettima Moguno, was the Minister of Mines and Power; Chief Phillip Asiodu, was the permanent secretary. And various names were suggested by the board. And there was one Engr Udoh. Udoh used to be the general manager of Aba Textile Mill and he was being considered. And some members raised objection that it will not be safe to appoint an Igbo man at that juncture to the post of general manager of NNOC because it was a very major industry in the country. And some of us there asked why. After five years? This was in March 1975, I think. We stated that if after five years of the civil war an Igbo man was to be a security risk in his own country, then Mr. President or Your Excellency, you should have allowed them to go. You do not want a country where one set of people will be second-class citizens, while others will be first class citizens.
At that juncture, General Gowon put his foot down and said Engr Udoh should be the General Manager of NNOC. Some members of the council were not happy. Again, it was a military regime. Some of them were not happy and what followed later was the overthrow of General Gowon. That was one of the reasons General Gowon’s government was overthrown.
Really?
I still believe that today. I am saying it because I was a member of that Council. Some of them visited the military command in Enugu, even when Asika was not available, who was the administrator. He was at Udi Power Station when they said some members of the government had visited military men. They went to Calabar and they did the same. They couldn’t see Esuene. They came to Benin and they didn’t see Ogbemudia. So, thereafter, they were not happy that he was appointed. What I am trying to say is that Nigeria is for all of us. There is no place for second-class citizens.
But that injustice you saw against the Igbo is still prevailing till today. The Igbo are still rated as third class citizens in their country. And with your closeness to President Jonathan, what has he done to address that issue?
Very good. When the civil war was over, I think the Igbo today, most of them are the architects of their misfortune if the Igbo are third class citizens today. A lot of them decided to chase money at the expense of seeking political power. Nigeria was a three-legged pot. The Yoruba had one pot. The Hausa-Fulani had one leg and the Igbo had one. Then in 1963, there was a fourth leg. That was when the Mid-West was created. The four-legged pot became a three-legged pot during the war. I believe that the Igbo themselves have allowed themselves, if there is anything like third class citizens, to become relegated because they have the right like any other Nigerian to fight for their right. I believe when they fought, they fought for a purpose. And that purpose was that they do not want their people to be killed or themselves to be regarded as second-class citizens. They fought the war! They lost people, but some of them have forgotten that they ever fought a war. Everybody is looking for money. Money, money, money!
Are other parts of Nigeria not looking for money? Is it only the Igbo people that are looking for money?
They are looking for money, but if you are looking for money with the mind that you still have a right to seek political office.
(Cuts in) The Igbo are doing what other politicians in the North and West are doing.
No, no, no…
I am just saying the Igbo are doing the same thing the politicians in the North are doing, the politicians in the West are doing, and the politicians of Ijaw extraction are doing. They are all looking for money. Why is it that 53 years after independence, no Igbo man had been president?
That is very, very unfortunate.
It is not fair.
That is very unfair. As I said, the Igbo man is entitled to be president of this country like any other person. But they have not fought for it. They have not shown that political will power that we are around. For instance, what are we fighting for today? We in the South-South had a Calabar Declaration in 2005, that this time round, we are going to have the Presidency. And we fought for it. And at the end of it, we ended up being vice-president. And today, we are the president of this country and anybody who wants to stop us, even if we are looking for money like any other Nigerian, we say no. Let us do our eight years. The Igbo man has a right to fight for his right. God did not give the rulership of Nigeria to one section of Nigeria. Then, the other part is not Nigeria.
So, Nigeria is a united country. For instance, let me say this: in England, in the United Kingdom (UK), you have the English people. In England, you have Scottish, you have Welsh. The Scottish people have produced more prime ministers than the English people who are more than the Scottish. The Welsh people have produced prime ministers, but in Nigeria, the Igbo have ruled this country for only six months during the Aguiyi-Ironsi time. But nobody has stopped the Igbo from fighting for their rights. Rather, they want to identify with other people for whatever they want to gain for themselves individually. You (former Gov. Orji Uzor Kalu) are here; you have been fighting for the rights of the Igbo, but quite a number of people who are Igbo are not committed to Igbo cause like you have been. That is a major problem.
Would you fight for an Igbo man to be president, as you have fought for the South-South?
Why not! Why not! Listen, at any time the Igbo are ready to fight for their cause of saying that we are Nigerians, we want to be president of Nigeria, and you can be sure I will support you.
We learnt in 2011, you led some Igbo leaders to make a deal. We want you to clarify it, that President Jonathan will rule for only one term and that President Jonathan spoke to Igbo leaders. He said they should help him in 2011 and he will help them in 2015. How true is that?
That was not true. The Igbo I dealt with knew about it, the President of Ohanaeze, Ambassador Ralph Uwechue, the former Governor of Anambra State, Ezeife; and many others. There was no agreement that Jonathan was going to serve for only one term. There was no agreement. There were Igbo who said at the end of Jonathan’s rule, after he has served the two terms, it will be the turn of the Igbo. We heard them say so. There was no agreement at all.
Governor Aliyu of Niger State said there is a pact between President Jonathan and them for one term. And President Obasanjo said also that there is a pact for one term.
Thank you very much. Obasanjo said he learnt so. And at the Eagle Square, he said he learnt that Jonathan has agreed to serve one term. Not that he told him so. He didn’t say so. And for Aliyu, with the greatest respect, he is a liar. I have said so in the newspapers. A man who signed an agreement with you for one term, there is an obligation on both sides. One obligation is that I want to contest, vote for me. The other obligation on the other man’s side is that I will vote for you but you will serve for so, so number of terms. But when the votes were counted at the primary convention, Niger State where Aliyu comes from, gave Jonathan 16 votes and gave Atiku 94 votes. In the general elections, Aliyu became unfaithful to his own party, the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP), because of his clannishness, because of the northern agenda. He believes that only northerners should rule in Nigeria. The people of Niger State gave Jonathan 325,000 votes whereas they gave a political opponent of Jonathan, that is Buhari, 676,000 votes. Is that a man who kept to his agreement? He is a liar; he is a man who cannot be trusted at all. I am surprised that he is governor of a state. Now, what happened a few days ago: the same Governor Aliyu presented the governor of Plateau State to be the candidate for the chairman of the Nigerian Governors’ Forum (NGF). He went there and voted against him again. So, he is always like that. He is not a man to be trusted.
The way the PDP is going, suspending people here and there and pursuing people, are people not major ingredients of democracy?
Do you want me to answer it?
Yes, sir.
PDP is the political party most of us belong to. And there must be discipline. The national chairman of PDP is the chief executive of PDP. So, if PDP gives a directive that somebody should follow suit, whether it is Mr. President, whether he is a governor and he refuses to carry out the instruction, that person should be suspended. No one is above the party.
So, you are saying the party is supreme?
The party is supreme. And let me say this: if you are referring to the case of Amaechi, Amaechi could not have been a governor. He did not contest any election. He could not have become a governor if the Supreme Court did not decide in his favour because of PDP, that it is the PDP that won the election and not Amaechi. And if Amaechi is not prepared to respect that same political party, then he has himself to blame. Let me make this point. You are interviewing me. You are a very nice former governor. I believe that you are a very good Nigerian. Support Mr. President. The Igbo would have their chance at the right time and we will all fight for you. I want to appeal to you about that. The Igbo should allow Jonathan to rule.
What if Igbo candidates want to buy form in the PDP convention?
(Cuts in) Let me say this: if we are copying the American system, a sitting President has no competitors during primary.
But this is Nigeria. We are not copying American system hook, line and sinker…
Ok, if we are not copying American system, coming to Nigeria, there are precedents. In 1979, Alhaji Shehu Shagari, contested with many other candidates in Lagos, that is in Yaba. I was there. Maitama Sule contested with him, Saraki, Adamu Ciroma; all of them contested with him. He won, but in 1983, those people were still around; there were many other qualified candidates, like Dr. K. O. Mbadiwe, the Okezies, the Sarakis, the Akinloyes, the Ekwuemes. Shagari was the only candidate of the National Party of Nigeria (NPN) at the convention, which I attended. Nobody contested it with him. In 2003, apart from a few people like Rimi, it was the decision of the PDP that Obasanjo should be the only candidate. So, what I am trying to say is that no one who is a true PDP member, should gang up with others to embarrass Mr. President. Mr. President should be allowed to be the party’s candidate in 2015.
But it is their fundamental human right to contest election.
Everybody has fundamental human rights to do so. But, there must be a system. Fundamental human right has qualification.
Are you not afraid that the party will lose membership, with this kind of decree?
More members will come because the All Progressives Congress (APC) may not be able to settle their leadership problem. More members are coming to PDP and I can assure you that with the leadership at the moment, with the courage they have at disciplining anybody, the party will grow from strength to strength.
Do you think 2015 elections will polarise the country further as many people, including America, have predicted there will be disintegration? Do you fear that?
I am not afraid of that. I am now 86. By 2015, I will still be stronger. We have had it before. Nothing could be stronger than the civil war we fought, but today, we are all together. As a result of the war, at the end of it, I have a house named after me in Queen’s School, Enugu, because immediately after the war, we all came together. Nobody should threaten the existence of Nigeria because of politics. Those people will not succeed.
We have dwelt so much on politics. Let’s talk personal issues. At 86, would you describe yourself as a happy man?
I am very, very happy. Quite happy.
Do you feel fulfilled?
I feel very fulfilled.
What kind of soup do you like best?
I eat starch and banga soup.
How many times do you eat banga soup in a day?
Once (general laughter).
Do you eat breakfast?
No, no. I take fruits.
What do you like for breakfast? Just fruits?
Fruits and orange juice. That is all!
Do you eat lunch?
No. I don’t eat lunch. I eat once in a day.
Is there any special drink that makes you happy at 86?
Yes, that is the strength God has given to me. I don’t discriminate. The only thing I don’t drink is very hot drink. I drink champagne. I drink red wine. I take soft drink. That is all!
What is the secret of your longevity, for the benefit of young people that are coming up?
The secret of my longevity is speak the truth, be upright. Speak the truth, damn the consequences. You sleep soundly. And I live from day to day. I am not envious of anybody.
Are you a wealthy man?
I am not a wealthy man.
Are you a billionaire?
I am not a wealthy man.
At 86, do you still like to see your wife in the night? Do you sleep alone or you like to always have your wife by your side?
(Cuts in) You must have heard that I married a new wife recently. And that shows that I am still strong (general laughter). My wife is a medical doctor from a very good family in Abeokuta, the daughter of the late Dr. John Sodipo and she is a medical doctor trained from Ibadan and UK, and very pretty. And for her to agree to marry me, shows that she knows I am a strong man (general laughter ) capable of taking care of her.
Do you still drink the local gin?
(Laughs) I have never done it. When I accompanied you (Kalu) to Amasoma during Alamieyeseigha’s tenure, did you drink it? You didn’t, so why are you asking me if I drink the local gin?
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