Prof. Itse Sagay (SAN) is a renowned constitutional lawyer
whose views are highly sought in the country and beyond. In this interview with
our source he speaks on Nigeria’s democratic journey, the NGF crisis, state of
emergency and other sundry issues. Excerpts:
Nigeria celebrated 14
years of Democracy on May 29. How will you assess the journey so far?
It
has been a very disappointing outcome. We have had civil rule but very little
of democratic rule. People seem to have lost nothing of the autocratic and
despotic misconduct that resulted in the demise of the First Republic. They
seem to have gained nothing from those experiences of lack of democratic
orientation, of oppression, of opposition. In addition to that, there is the
tendency to accumulate power and resources for self rather than for country. So
we have not learnt anything. Democracy requires discipline. It requires an
orientation of the mind which enables it to accept the fact that it could lose
power and that it is the verdict of the majority whose votes really count that
determine whether you are in power or not. None of these things have been
accepted. Those in power never willingly accept that the majority can give a
result which can turn them out of power. What we saw in Ghana has never
happened here and if those in power, particularly the PDP, are allowed to have
their way, it will never happen regardless of what the result of elections
actually are. Right now we are looking at an example. Virtually the whole of
the country watched an election by 35 governors and the result was transparent
and clear. Rotimi Amaechi won by 19 votes, Jonah Jang lost with 16 votes.
What has happened? The losers in a bare-faced, shameless and totally
anti-democratic behaviour have rejected the result and Jang is now declaring
himself the chairman of NGF and is asking the person who won the election to
cooperate with him. That is barefaced audacity which shows you that those
ruling us are anti-democratic and lack shame and any moral underpinnings of
their character and they can engage themselves in barefaced lying and thuggish
behaviour which assumes that the rest of us in the Nigerian population are
idiots who have no idea about what is going on. So, that is a perfect example
of what I am talking about. These are the rulers and if they will not accept a
free and fair election and instead declare a loser as winner and carry on
without shame and embarrassment as if what they are doing is correct,
then the level of moral decadence which is destroying our democracy is very
high. So, that is the problem with our democracy. We do not have enough people
among our political elite who are morally and also in terms of political
maturity qualified to participate in the democratic process.
Nigeria’s
democracy is fashioned after the American democratic system. Why do you think
democracy is working there and other developed countries of the world and seems
not to be working in Nigeria?
It
is because of the type of the human beings that we call political leaders or
political elites. That is what I am saying. In these developed countries, there
is already a culture which lays down all the rules, which everybody follows or
fails to follow at his own peril, that when there is an election, the votes
must count. And when the votes are announced, the result must count. Everybody
falls in line and obeys and accepts whoever has been voted in by the majority
and what you do is wait for your time in the next four years to try and
overturn this victory or also by appealing and convincing the populace that you
have something better to offer. But in this country, these rulers impose
themselves at any cost. They have no respect for the electorate because their
background is so poor, their mentality is so denuded of values and quality that
they cannot see that they are dragging Nigeria backwards into underdevelopment
and a primitive society. So it is the people who are in power that do not have
the mental capacity for operating in a democracy, particularly at the federal
level, especially in the PDP. The culture of impunity within that party is so
strong that what they seized by impunity is assumed by them to be the norm, the
correct way of life. Seizing other people’s right with impunity is their way of
life. So they have no respect for any process, human rights, judicial, nothing.
In fact, there are rumours going on that they are trying to use five members of
the Rivers State House of Assembly to impeach Governor Amaechi. Is that not
madness? Anybody who is doing that should be mentally examined because I am
sure that is insanity. Within our constitutional process, that is pure
insanity, but there are people who are contemplating it. So, that shows you
that the problem with Nigeria is the political elites. If you transfer these
set of people to America, they will under develop America within 10 years and
you will not recognize that country again.
Some
Nigerians are suggesting a Sovereign National Conference while others are
suggesting a revolution as a way of correcting these defects. Do you subscribe
to any of these two?
I
am in full support of a conference. We need to have a conference. That conference
will discuss our context of association. In fact, it will discuss the national
question, as we always say. We need that because at no stage have we ever done
that amongst ourselves and there is so much disagreement right now about what
form of association we should have.
Many
people are not happy with the kind of federalism that we have, which is almost
a unitary federalism and we want to go back to the pre-Independence and the
immediate Independence system in which strong regions, now states, with strong
financial bases were developed and then a much weaker centre in terms of
resources, in terms of power. That immediately will divert attention from this
do-or-die struggle to control the presidency and make people go back to their
federating units to seek power and to rule. Now on the issue of revolution, I
will certainly not support that. The reason is because it is something you
cannot control and it will consume both the innocent and the guilty and
eventually result in chaos and anarchy. So, it is something I will not
recommend. But I will recommend a national conference in which we will discuss
in a very, very mature and temperate atmosphere on how we should associate so
that we can now go back to our various federating units and operate the way we
want.
Many
concerned Nigerians have been clamouring for a SNC where Nigerians can sit and
discuss their future, why do you think the FG is foot-dragging on the issue?
Let
me tell you the reason why the federal government seems to be dragging its foot
on convening a Sovereign National Conference. It is a peculiar Nigerian issue.
And when people say the federal government, it does not just mean the president
and the executive, the National Assembly is also involved. I have noticed one
thing and we need political scientist to do a research on this. Once a person
is elected from his state to Abuja, he develops the Abuja mentality. Even if he
is going to be there for just one year, he changes automatically. When they get
there, they see federal government as almighty and the states as nothing, or
maidservants at the behest of the federal government and that can be oppressed
and treated nonchalantly. That is why you see many politicians who are once
friendly with their governors, once they get to Abuja, the next thing they
develop is a fight with the whole state, with a solid backing from the federal
government. It is a reflection of what I will call the infantile mentality of
the African politician in Nigeria. They forget that they are only there for a
term and after that, he is still coming back to his home base. National
Conference simply means we are all going to sit down and say ‘yes we all want
to continue as a nation because the bigger, the better, the more powerful’.
Then we say ‘under what condition did we want to associate and relate with one
another?’ Some will say we want it to be as loose as possible. That is the
Yoruba, Igbo and South South position, while the North - because of
access to oil and gas proceeds – will want a strong federal government. By the
time we speak to each other, we’ll then have a long term arrangement for living
together. We all want a federation so that we can all unite against
external threat. On central issues, we can come together and develop the
country, while on state issue, we can each go and develop ourselves and
compete. If I see that you are doing well in a particular area, I find out how
you did it and the whole country will develop. But you find out that people are
not thinking about this long term programme, they are thinking ‘I am the
federal, I am in the Senate, I am the president, so any attempt to transfer
money or resources from the centre, means you are transferring power from me,
from my control’. That is what is going on. So when you talk to them, they say
‘which sovereignty?’. We are the sovereignty and there cannot be two
sovereignty at a time. If you say okay ‘let us not call it sovereign national
conference, let us say national conference, they say no, only the National
Assembly can determine what the constitution should be and there should be no
other body. All of them in the next ten years will not be in the National
Assembly; they will be back to those zone and states that they are despising
and under developing right now. So, they are short sighted on the long term
issues , they have lost out. So, that is why they are foot dragging on
convening national conference.
Even
with the FG’s anti-corruption stance and establishment of the EFCC and ICPC,
the level of corruption in Nigeria keeps rising on a daily basis. Why do you
think the government is not winning the battle against this hydra-headed
monster?
The
reasons why we are not doing well in the fight against corrupt practices in
this country is simply because the corrupt people are the ones in power. I am
not making reference to the president as a person, but I am talking of his
party and his stalwarts that are around various positions of power in the
nation. You saw what is happening in the subsidy trial. Look at the children of
those involved. Doesn’t it show you where the source of corruption is? As long
as those who are in power are seating on beds of corruption, we will never get
any result. So, we will need not only a clean president, but one that will
force down cleanliness on everybody around you at any cost, whether they will
work against you politically or not and if it means a shorter political life
for you, you have ensure a long lasting legacy for yourself and posterity. What
is the point of ruling for 100 years and not making any impact? Nigerians like
signals a lot. If Nigerians see them come down heavily on five people, you will
see that the level of corruption will drop. But the way things are now, there
is so much impunity. As you are dealing with one, four or five corruption
centres are cropping up.
Looking
at the declaration of State of emergency in some volatile states in the North,
do you think President Jonathan acted rightly by retaining the democratic
structures in place?
Let
us start with the law before I express any opinion. The truth is, the president
has no power to remove a governor. Emergency declaration has no effect on any
governor. What Obasanjo was doing was a savage attack on the constitution of
the country and he got away with it because we had a weak Supreme Court at that
time that refused to tell him and declare what he did as illegal. So, the
president has no power to suspend any governor by declaration of emergency.
Just as we are now telling this president that he has no power to interfere
with the funds of those three states. The constitution makes it clear that once
funds are paid into the federation accounts, they must go automatically to the
state for their own operations without any interference, and that was declared
in the case between Lagos State Government and federal government over withheld
local government funds.
Some
group of persons predicted that Nigeria might break up in 2015. Looking at
recent happenings in the country, especially on the level of insecurity and
crisis in the PDP, is there any pointer to that effect?
If
I were the president and I see all these things happening, I would quickly do
all I can to put a stop to it. People have predicted such a very devastating
future for the country. I, as president, would do everything to avert such an
occurrence; certainly, not under my watch when I am president. So, it is a pity
that what is happening now is allowed to happen. I would say those governors
who voted for Jang and lost by refusing to accept that they lost an election
are creating a crisis whose impact and ramifications may not be predictable
now. I believe the president should not just congratulate Amaechi on his
victory. He should step in now and say ‘enough is enough. Election has been
held and won, it does not matter whether the outcome is unfavourable to my
interest or not, that is not the issue. The issue is the stability of Nigeria’.
This country must move forward. We must accept outcome of election, whether
pleasant or not and move on so that we can stabilize and think of our
development, growth and progress’. That is the role a president should be
playing, although he has no power technically over the governor’s forum, he can
call the PDP governors together and tell them to accept the verdict of the
election for the sake of the country. That is what a statesman will do and I am
hoping he will do that soon.
As
a legal luminary, what is your take on the suspension of some judges by the NJC
for engaging in corrupt practices, don’t you think they should also be
prosecuted? Also how would you access the performance being carried out by the
Chief Justice of Nigeria so far?
The
CJN has only been in the saddle for about 9 months and looking at that time
frame, one will say that she has performed exceedingly well. It is her
orientation that is important. She has shown again and again that she is
intolerant of corruption, laziness and idleness and that she is going to put
her foot sharply down on this very issue, that as a judge if you are found to
be corrupt, lazy or unproductive, that is your end as a judge. So, I put my
trust in her for the sanitization of the judiciary. It is not because she is a
female because there are some female judges who do not have the proper
orientation.
Source: Daily Independent
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